The Future of Democrats: Report from New York

I went to the DNC northeast caucus this afternoon, with help from Driving Votes.  Here's what I saw.

THE SCENE:  Nice old ballroom, brown walls, chandeliers.  Candidates on stage, left to right as drawn by lots: Frost, Webb, Dean, moderator, podium, Rosenberg, Fowler, Roemer, Leland.  In front of stage, about 10 rows of 12 seats each, then scattering of chairs broken up by platform with 5 large video cameras.  A balcony around entire upper level of the room, with pairs of seats next to railing.  About 200 people total in attendance.

THE SCORING: There are two things we need in a chair:  a budget manager, and a party spokesman.  (Unfortunately there is no candidate forcing me to write spokesperson... where's Carol M-B when you need her?)  Here's how they did.

Budget Management
Martin Frost Success coordinating campaigns nationwide while in Congress. +2
Wellington Webb Executive experience as mayor. +1
Howard Dean Outstanding success coordinating national campaigns through DFA.  Executive experience as Governor and head of Nat'l. Gov. Assn.  +3
Simon Rosenberg Has tackled nation-wide message building through NDN, no obvious measure of his success.  +1
Donnie Fowler National coordinator for Gore, state director in Michigan for Kerry.  +1
Tim Roemer Did not mention any relevant experience.  Hung his hat instead on his role in forming 9/11 Commission. 0
David Leland State director for Ohio.  Major accomplishment seemed to be a new office building and being a vice-chair in Franklin County when he was 18.  0

Party Spokesman
Martin Frost Clear, firm voice.  Speaks credibly on military issues - his wife is a major-general.  Cannot resist taking potshots at whomever spoke before him.  Would be great on Hardball - just the kind of screaming nonsubstantive arguer they love.  +1
Wellington Webb Calm, cool, collected.  Excellent at bringing any question back to his core issues - I think he managed to say "Roe vs. Wade" in every answer.  Would emphasize Democrats as party of African-Americans, other people of color, of women, of gays and lesbians.  Hits well and hard on the diversity message, but makes everything about diversity. +1
Howard Dean Clear, concise answers, clear vision that comes through instantly.  Speaks, in his words, with "deep conviction" - for better or worse.  +6
Simon Rosenberg Laughs awkwardly at his own jokes.  Would make the face of the Democratic party a New York Jew.  0
Author's note: This comment has set off a real firestorm I didn't anticipate. It has been educational, though upsetting, for me, but it has also already been hashed out here. I wanted to say that a good spokesman will speak to middle America and not play into anti-Democrat stereotypes, and I think Rosenberg fails that test. To Rosenbergians everywhere, I still think he is a good guy, just not a good television personality - and I think he knows that and doesn't aspire to be a "high-visibility" chair anyhoo.
Donnie Fowler Southern accent may help, but overall comes across as a snake.  If he and Mehlman were on split-screen, might be mistaken for twins.  +1
Tim Roemer Speaks adequately, but his message is not the Democratic message.  Of course there's a litmus test, dummy.  There are several. 0
David Leland I know it's not his fault he has a lisp, but it's just bad timing when the big fight next year is thothial thecurity.  0

THE ISSUES

Bow to Congress or the DNC?
An interesting question asked of Webb, Rosenberg, and Dean was what they would do if a Bush nominee were objected to by a minority of senators but a majority of DNC members.  (Better put it more broadly - when Congress and DNC members disagree, whose side will you take?)  Webb sided with DNC; Rosenberg with Congress; Dean split the difference.  Webb made it about Rice nomination, and said we need to be careful in cases like that not to appear to be objecting to an educated black woman.  (Right, because all across the nation people saw Barbara Boxer take on Rice, a liar and cheat, and said "Well what do you know, Democrats must hate black women!")  Rosenberg said the DNC chair is there to offer private advice to Congressional leaders on behalf of members, but does not help the party by exposing our rifts.  Dean said he personally opposed Rice's nomination but there was no point in strong-arming others into opposing it since she would be nominated eventually.  There were 4 or 5 issues, and potentially some unacceptable nominees, he said, where they would need everyone to fall in line - essentially that as chair he would pick his fights carefully.

Grassroots vs. Local
This bugged me.  Everyone there said they were all about grassroots.  That was a lie, but those lying didn't know it because they don't know what grassroots is.  Grassroots is not the same as local politicking.  Organizing block parties, precinct captains, on and on, is not grassroots politics - it's traditional local politics.  It's important too, but it's the culmination of top-down bureacuracy -- from D.C. to state chairs to county chairs to precincts to neighborhoods.  Grassroots is fundamentally different.  Grassroots is bottom-up, not top-down.  This idea is so foreign to these guys that they don't even get that they don't get it.  MoveOn is grassroots.  MyDD is grassroots.  DFA is grassroots.  Sending party organizers door-to-door is not grassroots.  

For example, Frost said his whole career has been about grassroots, which he defined as turning out more voters than the other side.  (He also credited the $5 donor revolution to John Kerry, and said that as chair he would "work" the people on the e-mail lists the DNC has amassed.)  Leland said he would make the DNC relevant to rural voters by crafting a message in Washington and then sending it out to local communities through local elected representatives.  Even Fowler, who spent his entire five-minute opening statement declaring death to the "aristocracy of political consultants" talked about grassroots in terms of organizing the Michigan state party -- although he is almost there, he almost gets it, when he talked about recruiting early among non-traditional Democrats, getting nuns going door-to-door, targeting Arab-American neighborhoods and getting them involved.  

Dean in contrast gets grassroots in his core -- he practically invented this iteration of it.  He talked about putting two directors and two grassroots organizers in every state on the DNC payroll (which is a trick to make it difficult to pull core funds from state parties when the national candidate says he or she needs more cash for media buys) but NOT telling them what to do - letting them build their own organizations.  Rosenberg did not talk persuasively about grassroots but did use the words "internet" and "blogosphere" once each, so he gets points for that.  Despite what we'd like to think here, the only time anyone else talked about the web, I believe, was when they said Wellington's last name.

The blunt truth is that the DNC chair can't do too much for real grassroots movements, since grassroots is by its nature not built top-down.  But he can provide sun and fertilizer, by getting out of the way when needed, and sowing enough money to help seed incipient efforts.  And by conveying a sense of ordinary people making a difference, and encouraging self-reliance... by saying things like, oh, I don't know... "You have the power."(tm)

The Fowler Amendments, and Circular Firing Squads
There was extensive (seemingly uninformed) discussion of a pair of amendments introduced by Donnie's father, Don Fowler, having to do with how DNC representation is apportioned.  They were intended to move representation to include a wider swath of Democrats, but there is a fear they will consolidate power outside the hands of minorities, labor unions, and so on.  Rosenberg (who seemed really unprepared for the question) and Webb spoke at length about the importance of maintaining diversity and respecting the base.  Fowler chimed in defending his father's name (which is his name too, he noted) and extolling his father's record of inclusiveness to make the point that these were not anti-diversity amendments.  Dean said, I'll tell you one thing, if I'm elected, we're not going to get into these battles over how to cross the t's and dot the i's like this (actually he said "dot the t's and cross the i's" but point taken, cross-eyed).  This led into a general discussion of the "circular firing squad" -- whether we can have a vigorous debate about the future of the party and come out of it not fractured but more unified than ever.

Here's where I'd like to leave it.  The people on the stage are good people.  They are good Democrats.  They are not all skilled politicans (Rosenberg, Leland) and they are not all progressive Democrats (Frost, Roemer).  Some of them have their hackles up over the way they've been treated in this race (Frost, Roemer again) and in a way, they have every right to be.  (In another way they have seen nothing compared to Dean who by this time has such a thick skin he just does a little eyebrow-lift as the attacks bounce off him.)  But this race has become much more than it really ought to be -- the stakes are higher, the spotlight is brighter -- maybe because for once we are pretty sure we have a horserace that a Democrat will actually win for a change.

I'll tell you this, I wouldn't have been in the room if not for Howard Dean.  The choice today is between moving to the middle (what Howard calls "Republican-lite") to bring the party to the voters, or moving to the left (what Howard calls our "deep convictions") and bringing the voters to the party.  It's not obvious which way will win.  But if we're going to be a party, let's be a party of something -- of something other than compromise.


Display:


Excuse me? (none / 0)

Simon Rosenberg: Would make the face of the Democratic party a New York Jew.

What kind of freeper bullshit is that? Fuck your PC antagonism and anything else you have to say. I'll wait for credible analysis from somebody who has half a brain.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:13:43 PM EST

Whoa. (none / 0)

That comment gave me pause, too, but I'm giving the author the benefit of the doubt and assuming that the phrase was shorthand for saying his image will play into a bigoted stereotype of Democrats held by an unfortunately broad swathe of anti-semitic Americans. Author, can I get a witness that that's what you meant?

It's further debatable whether or not consideration of other people's ethnic prejudices have any legitimate role whatsoever to play in making a selection (I suppose this would come down to a contest between principle and pragmatism), but even if the answer is no, the question presupposes acknowledging the fact of the prejudice in the first place. I'm presuming that the author doesn't share that prejudice, but acknowledges that it exists (in which case it would have been worth a few more words to clear that up).

If the author disclaims the poor choice of words, then it's a pretty quality diary. I'm hoping that disclaimer will be made, and made promptly so we can discuss the rest of the observations.

by Woodhouse on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa. (3.00 / 1)

Thanks for your note -- I stand by my choice of words, which meant exactly what I said, and exactly what you understood:  With the party where it is today, needing to reach out to the south and midwest, a New York Jew has inherent handicaps as a spokesman.  A San Francisco gay would have limits too.

I'm not trying to reinforce this sorry state of affairs (let's face it, not that many people read this blog, and we are all pretty like-minded) -- but the country is the way it is and we need to deal with that.

by emptypockets on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa. (2.00 / 1)

Rosenberg isn't even Jewish, dumbass.
by DemDog on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa. (2.50 / 2)

Howard Dean isn't really far-left either.  You're missing the point I wanted to make.

A guy from New York with the last name Rosenberg, on TV in middle America, talking about the Mets and laughing self-deprecatingly, is the face of a New York Jew.  

While these assaults on my character are interesting, does anyone have anything substantive to say about how these guys would do be perceived on the Sunday morning shows or the evening news?  Because that's what I was writing about.

by emptypockets on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

mmm....consumme (none / 0)


Grilled Oyster and Corn Consumme
11 shucked oysters
5 oz. corn
9 tbsp. salt
2 cups pepper
2 apples
4 oz. mashed pork
Stir the corn, pork, and pepper. Mix the apples and salt. Mix the apples, oysters, and salt thoroughly. Fry the pork.
Serve with ice water.
Serves 7.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:53:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa. (none / 0)

Rosenberg isn't even Jewish, dumbass

Uh. Are you serious? He seemed pretty Jewsish to me, and how many non-Jews are named Rosenberg?

I don't really want to get too much into the conversation, but I think that this google explanation of the search term "jew" says it best:

If you use Google to search for "Judaism," "Jewish" or "Jewish people," the results are informative and relevant. So why is a search for "Jew" different? One reason is that the word "Jew" is often used in an anti-Semitic context. Jewish organizations are more likely to use the word "Jewish" when talking about members of their faith. The word has become somewhat charged linguistically, as noted on websites devoted to Jewish topics such as these:
http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol01/vol01.174
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/jonah081500.asp


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:27:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa. (none / 0)

Troll rate me all you want to emptypockets. Around here we operate under the theory of positive integers. A troll rating from a troll translates into a postive integer. You're new here, so feel free to come back when you learn some manners. Take the quiz.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 07:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa. (none / 0)

Jolly,

I understand you disagreed with what I wrote.  But I've been on the site about a year now (it's true I just registered last month, but I read it daily before I began posting) and I was expressing an honest opinion that I'm happy - actually, very interested - to debate with you.

I troll-rated your posts hoping someone else would 0-rate them and help me to remove them from my diary.  I spent about an hour writing it, and you seem to be trying to block any dicussion.  If you disagree with me, please talk to me or move on -- but recognize I am open to changing my mind and just want to be heard.

empty.

by emptypockets on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 07:07:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa. (none / 0)

Feel free to take out the offensive, snide and inappropriate ethnic slurs and repost. You won't get a whole lot of sympathy around here being defensive in your use of ethnic slurs, regardless of your poorly argued rationalization.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 07:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa. (none / 0)

Jew isn't an ethnic slur.  As I've said below (and above, actually), I am a New York Jew and I have no problem with that (if anything I'm a little offended you think it's an insult!).  I appreciate you think I am an idiot for not getting it, but can you help me understand why it is offensive to you?  

I am still in shock that like-minded people (myDD readers) can have such polar opposite views.

by emptypockets on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 07:20:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa. (none / 0)

Jew is used as a racial slur, try Jew in google
Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 12:29:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As a New York Jew myself, (2.00 / 1)

I am proud to say I have exactly half a brain.

Look, the Republican party has demonized Democrats as either (a) Northeastern intellectual Jews who went to Harvard and eat wine and cheese, and (b) pinko commie hippies who live in California and sleep in sex orgies.  That is the reality of what's out there.  I am not making it up.  And I am not really advancing the idea by writing it down on a blog somewhere either.

Image is superficial but it is also everything.

Simon Rosenberg is a sincere guy and the ads he developed with NDN were the best anyone made last year.  But if you put Simon Rosenberg as the party's public face and say, now we're going to go on talk shows and appeal to blue-collar workers in Oklahoma, good luck.  

Don't know what parts of the country you're used to, but neither Jews nor New Yorkers are well-loved in big chunks of it.

by emptypockets on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:35:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

New York Jew (none / 0)

Howard Dean's wife is Jewish, does that make him bad? Plus, that's kinda like saying Howard Dean would make the face of the Democratic party a "pinko commie North Eastern liberal."
by sam89 on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:15:55 PM EST

Yes (2.50 / 2)

Howard Dean has the same problems, being seen as a cheese-eating birkenstock-wearing Vermont liberal.  (His wife hasn't entered into it, except in a Maureen Dowd column or two.)

Personally I think Dean speaks with a strength and conviction that overcomes the stereotype.  (I hope Simon some day will too, he's got an outstanding mind.)

There is no question in my mind that if Dean or Rosenberg were a Southern black preacher, or a cattle rancher from the midwest, or a woman, they would be far more effective advocates than they are.

But honestly the spokesperson role should be taken less seriously than the budget manager role - would prefer to see as much discussion from all of you about that as the word "Jew" has apparently set off.

by emptypockets on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dear empty pockets (3.00 / 1)

I apologize for not giving you the benefit of the doubt. I think some people are over reacting. However, I'm sure you realize that reading that one line without any explanation is kind offensive. But I reccomend everyone calm down here. THe guy is new and he didn't have any "criminal intent" with his comment.
by sam89 on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 07:09:17 PM EST

Re: Dear empty pockets (none / 0)

Agreed.  Seems like there should be a flame war rating somewhere on this site.
by Woodhouse on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 07:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear sam, (3.00 / 0)

Thank you for writing & talking to me about this.  I am actually really surprised at the reaction.  Why is the phrase "New York Jew" so loaded?  (again, let me emphasize I am one and don't find it offensive.)  In all honesty, I don't understand.  I have seen many posts saying Dean would not be a good chair because he's a Vermont liberal, same idea.  

Did readers honestly think I was saying something bad about Jews, rather than about the country's perception of the "New York Jew" stereotype?

I think I know how Dean felt after that confederate flag pick up truck remark...!

thank you,
empty.

by emptypockets on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 07:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear sam, (none / 0)

Your edit is an improvement, but I don't know why you think the link to dkos resolves anything. I just gave ultrageek another troll rating. "Please, not another jew." is not an acceptable or comment. If you wish to discuss the relevance of anybody's ethnic heritage I would suggest a more tactful approach.

In your circles casual, condescending remarks about "New York Jews" may be acceptable. I consider the term just as offensive as "fried chicken eating blacks". Neither term conveys any useful information and perpetuates unfortunate stereotypes. Unless Chris or Jerome corrects me I will continue to troll rate and decry this type of insensitive comment loudly and proudly.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 09:20:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear jolly, (none / 0)

Glad to talk to you about this.  Wish you would remove the 'troll' comments you made to denigrate my diary, hope you can tell by now I am not a troll.

Here are some references for you...

Al Franken, on running for senator:
"I'd be the only New York Jew in the race who was raised in Minnesota."

Summary of Annie Hall, from a Jewish Community Center web site:
"A neurotic New York Jew is set up with a midwestern woman."

Interview with David Nasaw from the graduate center at CUNY:
"As a historian of popular culture and a native of the city--a New York Jew is really what I am--I can't imagine living anywhere else."

Title of autobiography by Alfred Kazin:
"New York Jew"

I am trying to provide evidence to my argument that it is not an ethnic slur by any means.  Whether it is worth considering re: public spokesman for DNC, I agree is a very debatable question.

by emptypockets on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 10:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear jolly, (none / 0)

Nothing personal emptypockets. I changed your comment about having half a brain to a 2. I'll think about the rest, but don't expect a complete retraction. Examine the context of your examples. Most are referring to themselves, not other people. Feel free to refer to yourself any way you wish. The one exception is an artistic description. Context is everything.

FWIW, I'll probably react much the same way in the future. For now I'm moving on.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 10:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interestingly enough (none / 0)

A related topic just came up at another diary. Bizarro Anti-semitism is why we can't afford to take these kinds of statements lightly. Conservatives are using anti-semitism as a weapon. I haven't figured out who their target audience is exactly.

Hannity and Limbaugh are using the same tactic to criticize Dems who are critical of Rice or Gonzalez. "Democrats hate conservative minorities."

I'm going to continue being sensitive to abuse of ethnic labels to maintain my moral authority to criticize conservative abuse of ethnic labels.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 10:40:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As far as your comment below (none / 0)

/Don't know what parts of the country you're used to, but neither Jews nor New Yorkers are well-loved in big chunks of it. /

I am not the least concerned about what "big chunks of it" think about anything. As far as I'm concerned casual references to "New York Jews" are not acceptable discourse.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 09:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Step Away From The Keyboard! (3.00 / 2)

Can we all calm down for a few minutes?

emptypockets:

I think I get your point and I have some sympathy with you.  Some years back, I got flamed on a blog when I pointed out that Joe Lieberman would cost Gore votes because there are a lot of Americans that will not vote for a Jewish person, and particularly one as openly devout as Joe Lieberman.  That was, at least, my point.  But what I said was something more like "With some one as Jewish as Joe Lieberman on the ticket, Gore can kiss every southern state and a couple of midwestern states goodbye."

Like you, I had a point but I was rather insensitive in how I stated it.  Even if the rebukes are not stated gently, you should take them in good graces and be more considerate next time.  (Or disregard it and live with the flaming.)

JollyBuddah:

This writer is not new and is not a troll.  I think he/she got the point and I think you can let him/her off the hook for what was an unintended offense.

To the larger point:

Whether Simon Rosenberg is Jewish or not, your average anti-semite will assume he is.

We really should not be concerned with what anti-semites, racists and other degenerates think about the chair of our national party.  For one thing, as a group, they are solid Republican voters.

More important, to care what our enemies think is the kind of reflexive/defensive mindset that has plagued the Democratic Party for years.  We need to knock it off.  No more Sister Souljah moments, no more distancing ourselves from Jesse Jackson, no more hiding our support of gay/lesbian rights.  The people that are going to oppose us for those reasons are already opposing us.  We don't want to debase ourselves by appealing to them or legitimizing their ignorance, fear and hatred.

by James Earl on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 07:52:24 PM EST

Re: Step Away From The Keyboard! (none / 0)

I'm not the least concerned about a reflexive/defensive mindset. I also have no tolerance for ethnic slurs, "well intentioned" or not. If you think I am being hypocritical or over-critical, feel free to stop by JustOneMinute, a conservative site I stopped by this morning to discuss Social Security. I refer to personal accounts, avoid the term privatization and am careful not to trespass on whatever house rules I can determine. I have also participated at Q&A in the past without being offensive, even when challenged about topics I care deeply about.

I didn't go apeshit until emptypockets attempted to defend his ethnic slur. If emptypockets or anyone else wishes to discuss ethnic heritage, they need to raise the issue tactfully and respectfully. If I step out of line, Chris and Jerome are quite capable of taking me down a notch or two.

In the meantime, I hold no grudges and bear no man or woman ill will for unintentional slights.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 09:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Step Away From The Keyboard! (none / 0)

Jolly B

I agree with you that the statement was out of line, though it's pretty clear emptypockets didn't intend to slur anyone.

So I'm not asking you to back down, I'm asking you to back off.  

by James Earl on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 09:58:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Big Blogger Bully (none / 0)

JB,
I don't care what you have tolerence for.

I agree that you are a BIG BLOGGER BULLY.

You are not the only mind on this site.  Why can't you just quiet down.

by aiko on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 11:07:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, I wanna know (none / 0)

Why is it acceptable for everyone here to quickly dismiss African American candidates from running in state wide elections for the same reason empty laid out.

Oh So-so can't win because they will never accept African-American candidates statewide...it just a fact. Crawl through post (Hint: Lousiana and Colorado)on Kos and you will even hear this echoed by the man himself.

So, I wanna know why this is perfectly acceptable in the case of African Americam yet an outrage when it comes to Jews?

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 08:25:10 PM EST

JOLLYBUDDAH is a MORON (none / 0)

Emptypockets,

Thanks for the time you took to attend the DNC Caucus.  I did not agree with all of your perspective, but I found your thoughts informative.  

I did NOT find your comment about Rosenberg to be antisemetic.  I contributed and volunteered for Gore-Lieberman in 2000, and spent time in Florida, Illinois, and Wisconsin.  Many of us worried about the deep antagonism from many locals who were unfamiliar with Lieberman.  It was tough to convince others that Lieberman was one of the most conservative Senators in the Democrat camp.  That said, it was painful to see closed-minded voters in action.  Very painful.

I read your comments right after they were posted, and then went off to run some errands.  Now that I am back, I cannot believe the blog entries from Jollybuddah.

I have had some bouts with him this past week.  I am new, so I chalked it up to lessons learned, to each his own, and everyone's opinion counts.

However, after reading Jolly's comments, I can only come to the safe conclusion that he is a MORON.  

What Jollybuddah has failed to realize is your tone of the Blog.  In no way were you abrasive.  You may have been a little punchy, but never abrasive.  You gave your opinions, but did not try to ram them down the reader's throat.

Jollybuddah, on the other hand, is a BIG BLOGGER BULLY!  He needs his medicine, and some time away from the computer!
   

by Bill70 on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 08:36:31 PM EST

Re: JOLLYBUDDAH is a MORON (none / 0)

How about some Hugs?
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 09:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: JOLLYBUDDAH is a MORON (none / 0)

Having defended emptypockets, I now have to defend Jolly Buddah.  I wouldn't have put the same comments or reacted as vehemently, but I had almost the same reaction.

emptypockets is saying that being a "New York Jew" means that Simon Rosenberg, and presumably any other New Yorkers who are Jewish, as DNC chair is a problem.  That's out of line.  

by James Earl on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 10:06:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

glad to discuss it (none / 0)

I'd like to have this discussion - I actually don't think it is out of line.  I understand you had a visceral reaction to the idea, but the question of whether a politican can be "too jewish" is a legitimate one, as the commenters here who worked on the Gore campaign have attested to.  See also this 2000 Salon article about Lieberman, titled "Too Jewish?" It is a real question, one which you may have strong feelings on, but about which reasonable people can have different opinions, I think.

I think the public acceptance of any minority is a function of how many years since that group achieved nominal equality (for Jews, I'd say 1944; blacks, about 1970; women, about 1970; gays, maybe 2000 or not yet?) and also a function of how big the minority is.  Look at these numbers, from wikipedia:

Demographics of the United States
Jewish 1.3%
Hispanic 13.4%
Black 12.3%
Asian 3.6%

Even though anti-semitism has been out of style the longest, I think there are so few Jews in the country that the old sentiments have lingered longer... but I would (in all sincerity) like to hear your opinion.

by emptypockets on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 10:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Short Answers (none / 0)

First.

Anti-semitism has never "gone out of style" it's only gone a little underground.  This country is filled with raving anti-semites, closet anti-semites and people who just regard any person not like themselves as a "them" and subject to suspicion.

Second.

The answer to your question is other questions.  Can a politician be too Christian?  Too white?  Too male?  

Sure, the country is filled with bigots of all kinds.  And every time we worry about what they think we are telling them that they have a point.

by James Earl on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 10:55:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wellington & Condi (none / 0)

Actually Wellington Webb did not say that we need to be careful about people like Condi. That when it came to officials like Condi and Clarence Thomas he would not be afraid to speak out against them, because he felt that they didn't represent the interests of African Americans or the rest of the populace. He thought that race should not trump policies and positions when it comes to supporting or speaking out against nominees.

At least that's what I heard.

by brookeb on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 11:48:21 PM EST

Re: Wellington & Condi (none / 0)

I wasn't taken notes so I may have mistaken his point or be misattributing to him something else said.  But for what it's worth, another MyDD user blogged the same thing earlier here (and I don't know him or her)... so if it was a misimpression, it was one we both walked out of there with independently:

"Wellington Webb... said that it was bad politics for Dem Senators to have given Rice a hard time and voted against her, because it made the African-American base think that they were attacking her because she is a successful Black woman.  Sheesh!  That's a GOP talking point!  According to this way of thinking, BushCo can appoint any creep, just so long as they belong to a minority ethnic group, and we can't criticize them."

by emptypockets on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:22:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wellington & Condi (none / 0)

That diarist was me, and I should note that "bad politics" was not the term Webb used, but rather the clear implication of his comment.  He said that voters who aren't as sophisticated as we are about policy etc. would take opposition to Rice as a sign that the Dems are against a strong Black woman, so we have to "pick our fights."

So I definitely came away with the same impression as you did and I feel very confident that I understood his meaning correctly.

by wishful thinking on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did anyone mention Gonzales (none / 0)

I wanted to know what the next DNC chair felt he could say (in public) about Demcrats who vote to confirm Gonzales as attorney General.
by Abby on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 11:42:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did anyone mention Gonzales (none / 0)

To the best of my recollection, I don't think so.
by wishful thinking on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wellington & Condi (none / 0)

That was most definitely not what I took from what Web said, but rather that it was f-d up that Dems couldn't say something about that royal fuck up.
Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 12:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree (none / 0)

I listened to the rebroadcast on CSPAN tonight and I still think this is what he meant:  he was providing cover for the Senate Dems who did NOT vote against Rice, saying that "rank and file" Dems who are not as "sophisticated" would see opposition to Rice as opposition to a "strong, educated Black woman," so we have to "pick our battles carefully," in light of the fact that we seem to be losing minority voters.  (He mentioned this specifically).

He may be right that there's a cost. I just think this is a case where opposition is worth it, and it would be the job of the Chair to defend that opposition and enlighten the public as to the reason for it.

I thought he was wrong on Rice--though possibly he was defending the senators, rather than stating his own preference, I can't say.  Other than that I really liked him, and he's my second choice after Dean.  The main reason he's not my first choice is that I don't think he's quite as forward-looking, with respect to mobilizing the grassroots, using the web, etc., as Dean.

by wishful thinking on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 02:17:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wellington & Condi (none / 0)

I was there and I heard him say that we have to be careful when opposing Rice because opposing her looks like we're opposing educated black women.  There was a good response to that line.  

I blogged about the caucus here.

by eRobin on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 10:51:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

ratings (none / 0)

hey jollybuddah, i zeroed out your two troll stories.  to me, they just took up way too much space on the thread and distracted from the diary.

however, as i know you're not a troll, i'm going to go find some comments from you on other threads and uprate them to make up for the zeroes.

also, empty, i'm going to uprate a couple of your comments.  you're not a troll, either, and i feel some of those ratings were undeserved.

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 02:22:37 PM EST

thank you n/t (none / 0)


by emptypockets on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 03:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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